Curse

Xenomortis · Mar 30, 2009, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

If I couldn't use Assassin's Promise I'd use Soul Bind.

In fact, whenever I'm forced into another secondary than /A as a Curses necromancer, I bring Soul Bind if no attractive secondaries exist.

On a side note, if Barbs had a 1 second casting time it would be a better elite than Spiteful Spirit. Actually, if we just made Barbs elite and kept the 2 second casting time it would still be stronger than Spiteful Spirit.

Yes, but you're diametrically opposed to SS. I'll just assume you're too awsome to let mobs actually attack.

If I can't be bothered with any form of hero coordination or if I'm running with people who will insist on attacking something other than my target, I'll probably bring SS, just because it is some reasonable damage to have on a mob. In any other situation, I'll bring AP. Although I might throw up some weak excuses to run another build speccing into a different line.
Although if I'm actually serious in what I'm doing, it won't be SS I bring for my curses build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

SS+Reckless+SS is FTW. I haven't seen an AI healer that can outheal this. Especially when you're not worried about his melee/ranger pals (the Reckless bit) and have time to beat on him.

Now I know you and some others are going to say "OMFG REACTIVE HEXING SUCKS", but I chalk that up to the old "I wanna be cool on Guru". All my experiences in PvE tell me you can almost forget about a mob of warriors or rangers when you slapped Reckless+SS on 'em. Even more so in HM.

I take it you havn't run AP + MoP then.
Have you been to many places in HM? The healers are more than capable of outhealing two copies of SS and Reckless Haste won't add to the damage in HM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by talisk3

I see your point. But it's not like we can stop foes from attacking. Sure some skills will blind them, make it longer for them to cast, but they will still attack you.

The more you stop them attacking and hurting you, the better you're doing. Unfortunatly, this means SS is less and less effective. SS is a reactive hex and depends on the enemy. The enemy will cast and attack at a more or less fixed rate, a rate which you cannot improve. Unless you hinder them, it's static.
There are many more skills that do not depend on the enemy to do anything. The rate at which a skill like Mark of Pain or Barbs does damage, is dependant on your team. Your team can be improved and it can be improved to beyond that of the enemy.

For all of you arguing for SS, there's a really good post somewhere on the Necro or even Mesmer forums stating why reactive hexing (which includes SS and other crap like Empathy) is a poor choice in a PvE environment. I can't remember where it is and cannot be bothered to find it.

Improvavel · Mar 30, 2009, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by talisk3

I see your point. But it's not like we can stop foes from attacking. Sure some skills will blind them, make it longer for them to cast, but they will still attack you.

[earth shaker].

Calista Blackblood · Mar 30, 2009, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

For all of you arguing for SS, there's a really good post somewhere on the Necro or even Mesmer forums stating why reactive hexing (which includes SS and other crap like Empathy) is a poor choice in a PvE environment. I can't remember where it is and cannot be bothered to find it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

Backfire, Empathy, VoR, and SS all deal damage based on the hexed foe doing something. 'Kay?

If the hexed foe is doing something then you and your party members are suffering the consequences, whether it is getting attacked, hexed, nuked, whatever.

The point is that rather than using skills that require the enemy to beat the living hell out of you in order for them to trigger their damage, why aren't you using a proactive/aggressive stance and dealing damage and killing those enemies BEFORE they have a chance to get those nasty attacks and spells off?

Spells like these shine in PvP because they force the enemy to make a choice. As a human player, the choice ISN'T ALWAYS attack and cast through whatever hexes are stacked on you. But the AI will ALWAYS attack/cast through whatever nastiness you stick on them. ALWAYS. Whereas in a PvP setting, the player might choose to wait for hex removal if he/she is too far out from their backline. Forcing a skill to be used or not be used is infinitely more practical and useful in PvP. In PvE, all the skills designed to force the choice between "do it and the hex owns your face" vs. "don't do it and save your face" are neutered, and thus outclassed by direct brute force (direct spell damage or physicals knocking teeth out, take your pick). They are a control mechanism, and that control is why they are so powerful.

In PvE, sure, these skills do damage, but only if the hexed foe carries out the trigger action. In order for the damage to occur, they must CAUSE damage to your allies. There is no control aspect whatsoever. Therefore, the power of those skills is worthless. Sure, you get the damage, but rather than stopping the enemy from causing damage, controlling the situation (as Wandering Eye

EotN Wandering Eye

* 10
* 2
* 10

Hex Spell. For 4 seconds, the next time target foe attacks, that attack is interrupted and all nearby foes take 10..76..97 damage. (Attrib: Illusion Magic)

and Clumsiness

Core Clumsiness

* 10
* 2
* 10

Hex Spell. For 4 seconds, target and adjacent foes are hexed with Clumsiness. The next time each foe attacks, the attack is interrupted and that foe suffers 10..76..97 damage. (Attrib: Illusion Magic)

would do) you still suffer from the attacks/spell effects of the enemy.

If you use other classes, or other skills, you are still better off than using a Mesmer in PvE because they are about control, not the damage that results from the skills themselves (only ~25% of the real power involved in this case, tbh).

Yeah, long explanation. Maybe that helped clarify?

If not, feel free to rip me a new one.

Dug it up ^_^

Grim Lich · Mar 31, 2009, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Quote:

Originally Posted by talisk3

I see your point. But it's not like we can stop foes from attacking. Sure some skills will blind them, make it longer for them to cast, but they will still attack you.

The more you stop them attacking and hurting you, the better you're doing. Unfortunatly, this means SS is less and less effective. SS is a reactive hex and depends on the enemy. The enemy will cast and attack at a more or less fixed rate, a rate which you cannot improve. Unless you hinder them, it's static.

Guys? SS triggers on attack, not on hit. So if they are blind and still swinging it still hurts them...

Also, everyone assumes with reactive hexes, that you need to let the enemy attack you...unlike everything else? I'd like to see this mythical build that stops all enemies from attacking and kills them extremly fast. And I mean all enemies. This is why I'm pro SS, because they will be attacking you anyways, so why not rip them to shreads while they do it? As for [Earth Shaker]... I doubt you run into every battle with full adren. :P

FoxBat · Mar 31, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Spells like these shine in PvP because they force the enemy to make a choice.

The only reason people have to make a choice is that just attacking/casting is going to kill them in seconds. That's exactly what happens to HM mobs, they throw a few things at you and then promptly die.

Reactive hexes do not perform a shutdown effect in PvE it's true. (except clum/wandering which actually do interrupt) But they are still raw damage and they play that role quite well. Enemies can attack or lob spells all they want at you if you have the proper protections - popular defenses include SY, minion wall, prot spam, or bsurge/ward/aegis, none of which actually stop the enemy from attacking.

upier · Mar 31, 2009, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Lich

Guys? SS triggers on attack, not on hit. So if they are blind and still swinging it still hurts them...

Also, everyone assumes with reactive hexes, that you need to let the enemy attack you...unlike everything else? I'd like to see this mythical build that stops all enemies from attacking and kills them extremly fast. And I mean all enemies. This is why I'm pro SS, because they will be attacking you anyways, so why not rip them to shreads while they do it? As for [Earth Shaker]... I doubt you run into every battle with full adren. :P

[enraging charge] + [fgj! (PvE)] + [dark fury].
That is - unless the necro is spamming SS instead.

Nobody is arguing that the foes will do 0 damage. But what we are arguing is that if you focus on direct damage - the damage that foes do to themselves is so minimal that it's not worth it.
Sure even minimal damage is good - I mean all damage is sweet - but in a game where you have 8 skill slots - that means you are wasting some of the slots that could be used on something sweeter.

faraaz · Mar 31, 2009, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Lich

I'd like to see this mythical build that stops all enemies from attacking and kills them extremly fast.

[Assassin's Promise] [You Move Like A Dwarf] [Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support] [Finish Him!] + [Discord] [Discord] [Discord].

That kills single targets every 3-4 seconds, while you have just enough prots and defence ([protective spirit] [aegis] [weapon of warding] [weapon of shadow]) and interrupts to keep your backline up during the shitstorm of damage you unleash.

Considering that you nail mobs in HM within like 15-20 seconds (assuming you take out hex removers and healers first), THEY actually dont get enough time to do significant damage to you.

I'm only saying this because you said "all", and effectively, it IS all enemies, just that you nuke them veeeery fast one at a time BEFORE they can do anything significant to you, as opposed to a war of attrition style of gameplay where you stand there and (stupidly) take everything they have to dish out at you while killing them with (superior?) builds & tactics or whatever it is you use.

DreamRunner · Mar 31, 2009, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Lich

Guys? SS triggers on attack, not on hit.

SS triggers on activation of skills and attacks.

Moloch Vein · Mar 31, 2009, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Spiteful Spirit isn't a shutdown spell in PvE. It's a damage spell. Thus we must judge it by its offensive capacity.

The offensive capacity of Spiteful Spirit used as an elite if you have but one human Curses necromancer is vastly outclassed by Assassin's Promise.

The main reason that experienced players usually prefer proactive hexing is that they are used to playing with good friends or well-equipped and well-built heroes and properly selected henchmen. The damage from Spiteful Spirit is basically static and only varies by area, if you don't count minimal considerations such as hex placement, which are easily learned. Proactive, augmentative hexing on the other hand scales with your own team's performance, meaning that the better you build your entire team the better your output will be.

There are no really good Curses elites. Most are in a sense reactive. I'll go through all of them.

Corrupt Enchantment's only saving grace is a 1/4 casting time which is nice, but hardly worth your elite slot.
Depravity doesn't work.
Feast of Corruption is hopeless due to insane recharge and slow CT.
Lingering Curse is actually pretty nice due to low casting time, low recharge and reduced healing, but again, it only reduces healing that actually gets through, and degeneration is weak. Still, it's a marvelous cover hex.
Order of Apostasy is immensely cool but situational and, well, not cheap.
Pain of Disenchantment is actually better than Feast of Corruption, it's not a bad option in order to throw a fast damage hit around.
Plague Signet requires that your enemy applies a condition.
Signet of Suffering is a joke.
Soul Bind only triggers if the enemy monk actually can get a healing spell off, in which case he usually outheals it.
Weaken Knees is mediocre single target degeneration.
Wither is trash.

So, you see, what to use? Barbs and Mark of Pain and Rigor Mortis and Enfeebling Blood and Reckless Haste are all heads and shoulders over these elite options.

Spiteful Spirit is the best reactive hex in the Curses line, admittedly, and the second best reactive hex in the N line. However, that's usually not a good reason to carry it.

Xenomortis · Mar 31, 2009, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Lich

Also, everyone assumes with reactive hexes, that you need to let the enemy attack you...unlike everything else? I'd like to see this mythical build that stops all enemies from attacking and kills them extremly fast. And I mean all enemies. This is why I'm pro SS, because they will be attacking you anyways, so why not rip them to shreads while they do it? As for [Earth Shaker]... I doubt you run into every battle with full adren. :P

As Moloch said, it's a damaging skill. Unfortunatly, it isn't a highly damaging skill and the damage it does cannot be improved.

SS only does damage when they try to hurt you. Would it not be better to prevent them from trying to hurt you in the first place? Or should you just let them attack and cast to get the most out of SS?
If you rip the mob apart quickly, SS was fairly pointless, and if that mob takes ages to die, then they've probably hurt you a lot.
There are builds that will rip a mob apart faster than SS and your team will suffer much less damage in the process.

ac1inferno · Mar 31, 2009, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Aside from [[Spiteful Spirit], there really is no other curse elite to use. An alternative elite option to a curse build would be [[Assassin's Promise], but that's not really a curse elite.

Xenomortis · Mar 31, 2009, 10:37 PM // 22:37

The most useful elite to a curses necro, isn't in the Curses line. Which seems odd.
Excluding that, the curses elites are fairly useless in a PvE setting. Out of the lot, SS does seem like the best, but it falls short of the other non-elite skills in that line.

Other potential candidates I can see in the Curses line would be:
[Soul Bind] - Moloch suggested it, but it's a similar concept. It's a reactive hex and easily outhealed. It's just healer hate.
[Pain of Disenchantment] - 12 second recharge only hurts a bit, but the effect is nice and the damage reasonable. Conditional use though.

That's it, those two. I would put [Feast of Corruption] with them, but that's stupid with it's 20 sec recharge, 2 sec cast time and irritating condition for maximum effect. It falls short of PoD and even the pre-nerf [Oppressive Gaze] (before they added that bloody stupid below 50% condition)

Grim Lich · Apr 01, 2009, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

SS triggers on activation of skills and attacks.

Lol I know, I was saying in context to the Blind condition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

[Assassin's Promise] [You Move Like A Dwarf] [Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support] [Finish Him!] + [Discord] [Discord] [Discord].

That kills single targets every 3-4 seconds, while you have just enough prots and defence ([protective spirit] [aegis] [weapon of warding] [weapon of shadow]) and interrupts to keep your backline up during the shitstorm of damage you unleash.

Considering that you nail mobs in HM within like 15-20 seconds (assuming you take out hex removers and healers first), THEY actually dont get enough time to do significant damage to you.

I'm only saying this because you said "all", and effectively, it IS all enemies, just that you nuke them veeeery fast one at a time BEFORE they can do anything significant to you, as opposed to a war of attrition style of gameplay where you stand there and (stupidly) take everything they have to dish out at you while killing them with (superior?) builds & tactics or whatever it is you use.

I think the fact that we don't see people running those builds is proof it doesn't exactly work.

Also I don't know about anyone else who uses SS, but after I cast it, I don't walk over to the monster and shout "ATTACK ME!". The monsters are usually on a tank, who has the preventive measures already on them... so you don't need more...

I don't see the problem. Unless you DO walk over and give the monsters a hug... then by all means use your "superior" build.

faraaz · Apr 01, 2009, 02:24 AM // 02:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grim Lich

I think the fact that we don't see people running those builds is proof it doesn't exactly work.

Quote:

I don't see the problem. Unless you DO walk over and give the monsters a hug... then by all means use your "superior" build.

You dont play a lot of HM do you? Have a go at vanq'ing Dalada Uplands or Verdant Cascades or something like that. The melee heads straight for your backline...

Tank N Spank is for NM

Chthon · Apr 01, 2009, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

SS is a reactive hex and depends on the enemy. The enemy will cast and attack at a more or less fixed rate, a rate which you cannot improve. Unless you hinder them, it's static.
There are many more skills that do not depend on the enemy to do anything. The rate at which a skill like Mark of Pain or Barbs does damage, is dependant on your team. Your team can be improved and it can be improved to beyond that of the enemy.

This is the heart of why reactive hexing isn't optimal. It's slow compared to active damage options.

The fact that allowing the monsters to act could get you hurt is secondary. You *can* use defensive skills to mitigate the pain while you let the monsters act (SY!, PS, blind, weaken, etc.). You *can't* do anything the speed up the damage rate on reactive hexes. That's why the damage rate is the main problem and the monsters hitting you is a secondary problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by faraaz

[Assassin's Promise] [You Move Like A Dwarf] [Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support] [Finish Him!] + [Discord] [Discord] [Discord].

That kills single targets every 3-4 seconds,

Which is actually pretty slow. Faster than reactive hexes, but slower than many other active damage options. Just foolproof and easy since the heroes do all the work.

Hanging Man · Apr 01, 2009, 05:43 AM // 05:43

best curses elite, straight up Spiteful Spirit.
a hefty price, 15e is alot, but but Aoe damage on pretty much anything the enemy does, regardless of standing there?
yeah pretty sweet in my mind.

It won't stop enemies, but it will make them stop in their tracks.
I'd go with SS, but if your bored with it and still want to take curses, Lingering Curse is my next choice. But even then it doens't add up to spiteful spirits powa.

cataphract · Apr 01, 2009, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I take it you havn't run AP + MoP then.

Here's where you're wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Have you been to many places in HM?

What makes you think I haven't? /confused

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The healers are more than capable of outhealing two copies of SS and Reckless Haste won't add to the damage in HM.

Okay, I'll type this slowly.

First of all, there aren't two copies of SS but four. Sometimes even five if the faster recharge kicks in. I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but mobs in HM have increased attack speed. Therefore, the faster they attack, the more damage from SS. This is where Reckless comes in with its faster attack speed for even more damage. Also note that SS triggers on every attack regardless of whether the mob hits its target or not. Reckless Haste job is twofold: it serves as SS cover and as an almost unstrippable Aegis since hex removal is something mobs aren't blessed with.

Now to answer your questions.

A) Yes, I have played AP+MoP. Things explode quickly. But what's more important to me - I get bored of it even quicker. Besides, it doesn't feel like playing a necro to me.

B) I have been to every HM place at least twice. What's more important, I have farmed max kurzick by MT vanquishes as necro. No significant discrepancies in finish times between AP and SS or even MM builds were observed.

Topic of this thread are Necromancer elites. Last time I checked, Assassin's Promise wasn't one of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

Dug it up ^_^

The post is good but falls flat on the face when it states that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

In order for the damage to occur, they must CAUSE damage to your allies. There is no control aspect whatsoever.

Tyrael conveniently neglects to mention damage avoiding measures in the form of Reckless Haste, Blind and Aegis.

Moloch Vein · Apr 01, 2009, 01:42 PM // 13:42

If you cannot see any discrepancies in finishing time between different builds it would stand to reason that you're not contributing much to your team. There are a number of reasons why this would be so but it's a mistake to assume that just because you notice no difference, they're all equal in strength.

Xenomortis · Apr 01, 2009, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

Okay, I'll type this slowly.

First of all, there aren't two copies of SS but four. Sometimes even five if the faster recharge kicks in. I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but mobs in HM have increased attack speed. Therefore, the faster they attack, the more damage from SS. This is where Reckless comes in with its faster attack speed for even more damage. Also note that SS triggers on every attack regardless of whether the mob hits its target or not. Reckless Haste job is twofold: it serves as SS cover and as an almost unstrippable Aegis since hex removal is something mobs aren't blessed with.

In HM, monsters have an attack speed boost of 33-50%. Reckless Haste will not add to that, meaning it's only use will be to prevent damage (which is still useful).
Having 4 copies of a slow killing reactive hex floating around is pretty much wasteful. Your energy could be much better spent on something else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

Tyrael conveniently neglects to mention damage avoiding measures in the form of Reckless Haste, Blind and Aegis.

But you're still waiting for the enemy to do something. If your build is geared towards maximising the effect of SS, your build is dependant on the enemy doing something. Ok, the AI is fairly reliable at being stupid, but you cannot improve your damage output by much.

Don't get me wrong, SS isn't a bad skill. What it isn't, is good. It will work and help get you through HM.

Although this thread does talk about Necro elites, I still recommend Assassin's Promise. If you're not interested in that at all, I've commented on what I consider potential candidates for a curses elite replacing SS.

Chthon · Apr 02, 2009, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

But you're still waiting for the enemy to do something. If your build is geared towards maximising the effect of SS, your build is dependant on the enemy doing something. Ok, the AI is fairly reliable at being stupid, but you cannot improve your damage output by much.

Correct. The lack of speed is the problem with reactive hexes.

@ cataphract: Please read the above slowly.

Quote:

In HM, monsters have an attack speed boost of 33-50%. Reckless Haste will not add to that, meaning it's only use will be to prevent damage (which is still useful).

Actually, I believe empirical testing did show that at least some HM monsters still have room for a marginal speed increase with RH. The effect is trivial, but it's still there.